Closure of FLAMEWARS?

[sallyfox]

Channel Flamewars.......... BOOM BOOM!......... What is it good for??

Not much, is the opinion of the seniors 3

Do we need it? Do we want it? ("We" being you the reader)

Is it a door left open for asshats? Or is it a needed area for venting relief? We are looking for responses to these questions, and hearing the collective voices of the average paracite, will help us come up with a fair answer. If you think dropping the channel is no loss..... cool If you want the channel to stay, then you should clearly state your reasons, and they will be taken in consideration. The subject is open to debate for the next week or so, ("so" being a day or 2 at most)

Thank you

[jimmyBUFFET]

I think, personally, that it's worth having. If it doesn't cause any extra server stress and if we get more people in chat, I think it's a lot more useful than, say, /tech. If there's no NEED to drop a channel though, I don't see why it would be a problem to leave it where it is. I see people go in there sometimes to say something mean (usually it's something that's more sarcastic than mean, but the flamewars tag adds to the humour, I think.) I just don't really see what's so urgent about culling the herd, so to speak, that this keeps coming up.

-jB

[commandermack]

I'd personally like to see a clearer set of rules or something for the channel, are there rules in flamewars? lol! I personally would like to see actual WARS of the FLAME variety take place once we get clans guilds and the like. Would make for some good down-time.

[trogdorable]

Jimmy, we were reviewing all the rules, purposes, and uses of all the channels in preparation for beta. I have seen more use of pretty much all of the channels other than /flamewars, including /tech. You might not see what's so "urgent" about this, but rather than just kicking around the "will we or won't we" and saying "well we can always deal with it later," we'd rather deal with it now, before beta.

Personally, I do not see the point in /flamewars. I feel it will just encourage asshat behavior more. Sure it provides an outlet for asshat comments, but if they're in Paradox chat, they're already on this thing called THE INTERNET and could go a million other places to be an asshat.

Mack, in regards to rules, due to the nature of the channel it's come into discussion as to where the line in the sand would be drawn exactly. How can we really say, "ok, here's a channel to be an asshat, but only if..." ? It just seems like that would defeat the purpose. I believe the channel was created with the idea that if asshats had somewhere to go, they wouldn't be asshats elsewhere, but really, what's going to stop them? A ban? I would rather just ban them and not have that drama in our chat rooms at all.

[commandermack]

Yeah, my initial thought is there wasn't rules, and without rules comes a room that doesn't need MODing, and without MODing comes disaster. Probably best to just cut the cancer out, as it were.

[JazzyCat]

I think we should get rid of it.

I feel that by having it it sends a message that it is okay to say negative things to each other in Paradox even if it is all in good fun. I personally don't see the fun in saying mean things to someone else.

Of course, this is coming from she who is full of hugs!

[Gobberwart]

Occasionally, Flamewars is vaguely amusing. Mostly it's just kinda lame, so if you guys want it removed, I'll remove it. So far haven't heard anything from anyone that suggests we should keep it.

[Zammorak]

/me sheds a single tear for the loss of /flamewars. You will be missed. D':

[jupider]

<flamewars> jupider: You guys are all a bunch of jerks.
<flamewars> jupider: Well, actually only the ones that want to get rid of /flamewars.
<flamewars> jupider: Jerks.

[sallyfox]

Yup, great example, thanks for the "demo" Jupider

With no groundswell support for the channel to stay, Id say the thread is about as ded as the channel.......thanks to all those who gave imput...... much appreciated

[Gobberwart]

I did agree and, well, I *had* locked the topic but then I mentioned it in chat and realised there were regular chatters who hadn't seen the forum post. Unlocked again so they can have a chance.

[Grokly]

Just a couple of thoughts that some may not be aware of...

/flamewars was started due to the "popularity" of all-in-good-fun insult hurling for the humor of watching who could be the most creative and serve the opponent. It is NOT about being an asshat. For purposes of this discussion (chatting), I define asshat as someone who disregards the spirit of a community channel. It goes back to a time in another game's clan chat channel where DrWolf, SportGuy and, somewhat later, myself, used to engage in such antics late and night.

When used in this fashion, it can be quite amusing...

AS LONG AS everyone who is participating or watching the flames understands what it is all about. Get that? That's the BIG key here.

The problem with this channel, as I see it, is twofold:

1. This channel needs not only better defined rules but a better description of how the channel should be used. Including examples would be a very good way to help accomplish this.

2. People who never read channel guides, or just don't get it, will wander in and take offense at the content. Some of these types of players will, if not complain, at least raise issues with the mods about it, not even pausing to consider the name of the channel.

Here's the rub. While issue number one is relatively easy to fix, issue number two may present a real problem once we have a larger community here. One of the ways in which we initially discussed dealing with this is that access to /flamewars would only be granted upon request and after the player has read and understands the concept of the channel. We opted not to go this route because of the burden it would place on the mod team with a large chat community.

So... while I really like the channel and it's intended purpose and do not really want to see it abolished, I am willing to leave this one up to the mods & senior mods. They are the ones that are looking at this channel for the very same reasons and will have to deal with it. I don't have to deal with it, I can just play there.

Perhaps a slightly different take on this channel is needed. What if we call this channel the only non-modded channel? And by non-modded, we all know this means self-modded by the players in the channel. If Gobb were willing to code it, a brief blurb about the use of the channel (or direct link to the channel's wiki page) might also help.

Just a couple of ideas which might help retain the channel that some of us enjoy. I will, however, support whatever decision the mods arrive at.

[trogdorable]

Yeah, I really don't see how we could possibly mod it with the time and resources that would require due to players not understanding what it is for. I do understand it was made for good fun, but I really do see that happening where new players roll in and assume it means permission to be an asshat, causing all sorts of modding issues where even if we said it was player moderated, the mod team would still be inundated with PMs and PMails regarding issues from in there.

Right now joking jabs take place pretty much everywhere in chat, and for the most part it seems to be ok. Occasionally I see a conversation going down that path and then someone goes oh this is what /flamewars is for, and then half the conversation goes in /flamewars and half goes in /social or whatever. Imagine if you were at someone else's house and you had to run to the kitchen every time you wanted to make a joking insult related to your conversation, and then run back to the living room for the rest of the conversation. It seems a bit awkward.

[Grokly]

Exactly, Trog.

Addressing the two issues from a mod perspective to help ease that burden might be to:
1. Create a macro that issues a mod advise/warn to take all good-natured insulting to /flamewars.
2. As a mod, never go into /flamewars unless you are there to have fun.

That second one would probably require some coding to make all chat icons in the channel green-shirted.

Again, just promoting thought and discussion. I am not advocating one way or the other because I will not have to be dealing with these issues to the extent the mods will.

[Gobberwart]

I don't have anything to add except to say that, at this point in time, I am not in a position to code anything special for flamewars. I have way too much on my plate to get stuff ready for beta, so I'd rather see the channel removed if it's problematic. We can always look at it again post-beta if there's a need to.

[trogdorable]

Yeah who knows, once we get more of a playerbase/mod coverage and can feel out the general chattitude we can reevaluate the concept, but maybe flamewars would be better as a guild/clan sort of thing if you guys implement those with their own chat rooms.

[Chachoregard]

As much as I don't use /flamewars, I think there could be some use for it, post-beta release. It could be...I don't know, a listen-only channel in which announcements pertaining to warfare between clans/guilds. Those who are mostly aligned to PvP and Clan/Guild Warfare would be interested in listening to the clan and looking for when their clan/guild gets into a bitchfight over who's clan is better.

[Gobberwart]

Given the lack of any convincing arguments to keep the channel open, flamewars is officially no more. Thread locked.